Measurement Sensors and PLC's - Eng-Tips

26 May.,2025

 

Measurement Sensors and PLC's - Eng-Tips

Hi Everyone,

I've been an electrician for just over 6 years in a packaging processing plant.

I have been asked by my manager to design a system using measurement sensors, moisture sensors and an output printer.

I have found various sensors that will measure these and give me a 0-10V or 4-20mA outputs as well as switching points etc.

What my question is and it is probably not an easy one to answer as its quite a big ask....


Ill try and describe the application.

We produce corrugated board and a machine loads these sheets onto a pallet creating a stack.
During production water, starch and PVA are used to create the corrugated part. Sometimes the boards come out mishapen instead of flat.

We want to use two measurement sensors looking down onto the top of the pallet to measure the distance between the sensor and the board then calculate if there is any difference between the two values.

If the value is within a set acceptable range we would like a printer to output a label saying pass, otherwise the printer to output a fail label.

The same with the moisture meter. Read the moisture in pallet and compute to give a pass or fail.

I have no experience atall with PLC programming so the question is can anyone recommend a PLC that can do something like this that we can program easily etc.


Many thanks, Michael Wow.. I don't know where to start.

You are talking about a very tall order for a guy who's never even programmed a PLC. My experience sez your project is going to crash and burn many times over. There are so many show stopping gotchas lurking around this design. You guys aught to spend YOUR time specifying exactly what you want instead of trying to cobble this up.

Figure out what you want for a human interface.
The range of acceptance for your boards and how to change them.
The available power supply.
What electrical outputs you might want for controlling other machines.
What signalling you might need because X boards in a row failed.
Whether you need to look at the whole sheet or can instead scan the sheet as it goes past a point. In other words, can you line scan it instead of looking at the whole board.
What kind of enclosure you need.
And for cryingoutloud!! What you can use instead of a ridiculous printer to print out stoopid pieces of paper. Talk about a major failure point for a production application! This alone demonstrates you guys need some local talent to help you with this project.

So spec exactly what you guys want,(see above), then shop for someone to help you with it. It will cost far less in the long run.


Keith Cress
kcress - This is more of a sensor issue than a PLC issue in my opinion. The flatness sensing is already available as a canned product, I have used them for similar applications (roofing tiles). It can provide an analog output into a PLC, or is can be configured with an internal bandwidth and give you a simple "Go-No Go" or "Pass-Fail" discrete signal that you can look at with a PLC. The sensor is usually called an OD Sensor, for Optical Displacement. Sick is who I'm familiar with, but there are plenty of competitive products out there. Then the printing aspect is a simple canned solution as well, there are a bevy of ink-jet case/pallet/crate printer companies out there already, tried and true technology, easy to integrate. HP even has canned ink-jet printers for industrial applications now.

Moisture on the other hand is going to be more of a challenge. Moisture typically requires sampling of some sort or another. If you had a drying room and want to monitor the moisture content of the air, that's relatively simple. But detecting a moisture level in a product moving by a sensor is something that's very specialized. The big industry leader in that, for applications similar to yours (pulp, paper and converting) was Measurex, who was bought by Honeywell. After the Honeywell purchase I lost track of them and their products, but I'm sure Honeywell did not abandon that technology, it was the industry leader. The only other one I have ever seen in use that was non-contact was this one from Moisture Register Products, a Near Infra Red (NIR) sensor that looks at and compares wavelengths of reflected NIR energy. I'm sure there are more out there though.


"Will work for salami"
I think you guys are working yourselves up a bit.

The setting is quite well defined: An industrial environment with no extremes (paper converting). Available power is standard. And if a printer is needed to label the stacks (or sheets) - let there be a printer. You cannot always use a jet head to print directly onto the product. But if possible, why not?

Sensors for humidity are plenty. And so are distance sensing lasers or triangulating devices.

Jeff mentions a few papermaking household names, which I am sure you recognize, but there are a lot more. Keyence have been quite innovative lately.

As for the PLC, I think that something just above a micro PLC (like the LOGO!) is needed. I said just above. Main thing is that it can communicate with the sensors and that it can control the output device (printer or similar).

Tell your manager that this will consume time and that you will need to go an introductory training course to be able to work efficiently. Or that you need to take in a consultant.

Also tell him that the long-term best solution is that you do the job. You will then not be dependent on outside resources when/if problems occur.

Final word: Don't just get it running - write down what the thing does. And how. Name everything. Documentation is important.



Gunnar Englund
--------------------------------------
Half full - Half empty? I don't mind. It's what in it that counts. Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all the reply's.

Here are the sensors we have provisionally chosen,

Distance:
Moisture:
Not chosen yet.

We already have a couple of the distance sensors in the factory on different applications.
The moisture sensor is still being researched, we have a couple of options but all we have looked at give a 0-20mA output.

The measurements will be taken on a stationary pallet.
I will suggest the jet head printer to my manager (we have a few of these in the factory) but I think he would rather have a label printed to stick to the pallet.



There are no harsh environments. The area to take measurements will be in the quality control area which has temperature and humidity control so will be constant.

As a factory any kind of power is available, but a single phase supply will be used with a 24V transformer.


Time is not an issue, I'm open to learning.
I can already program in C+ , HTML, PHP, some Java so I presume I will be able to easily pick up some programming from an introductory course.

I've had a look at the Logo PLC and it looks good. If my memory serves me correctly these are the same PLC's that are in our heating control system.

Will this be able to communicate with a touch screen interface?

Thanks again,

Michael

With programmable pixels, novel sensor improves imaging of neural ...

Neurons communicate electrically, so to understand how they produce such brain functions as memory, neuroscientists must track how their voltage changes — sometimes subtly — on the timescale of milliseconds. In a new open-access paper in Nature Communications, MIT researchers describe a novel image sensor with the capability to substantially increase that ability.

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The invention led by Jie Zhang, a postdoc in the lab of Matt Wilson, who is the Sherman Fairchild Professor at MIT and member of The Picower Institute for Learning and Memory, is a new take on the standard “CMOS” (complementary metal-oxide semiconductor) technology used in scientific imaging. In that standard approach, all pixels turn on and off at the same time — a configuration with an inherent trade-off in which fast sampling means capturing less light. The new chip enables each pixel’s timing to be controlled individually. That arrangement provides a “best of both worlds” in which neighboring pixels can essentially complement each other to capture all the available light without sacrificing speed.

In experiments described in the study, Zhang and Wilson’s team demonstrates how “pixelwise” programmability enabled them to improve visualization of neural voltage “spikes,” which are the signals neurons use to communicate with each other, and even the more subtle, momentary fluctuations in their voltage that constantly occur between those spiking events.

“Measuring with single-spike resolution is really important as part of our research approach,” says senior author Wilson, a professor in MIT’s departments of Biology and Brain and Cognitive Sciences (BCS), whose lab studies how the brain encodes and refines spatial memories both during wakeful exploration and during sleep. “Thinking about the encoding processes within the brain, single spikes and the timing of those spikes is important in understanding how the brain processes information.”

For decades, Wilson has helped to drive innovations in the use of electrodes to tap into neural electrical signals in real time, but like many researchers he has also sought visual readouts of electrical activity because they can highlight large areas of tissue and still show which exact neurons are electrically active at any given moment. Being able to identify which neurons are active can enable researchers to learn which types of neurons are participating in memory processes, providing important clues about how brain circuits work.

In recent years, neuroscientists including co-senior author Ed Boyden, the Y. Eva Tan Professor of Neurotechnology in BCS and the McGovern Institute for Brain Research and a Picower Institute affiliate, have worked to meet that need by inventing “genetically encoded voltage indicators” (GEVIs) that make cells glow as their voltage changes in real time. But as Zhang and Wilson have tried to employ GEVIs in their research, they’ve found that conventional CMOS image sensors were missing a lot of the action. If they operated too fast, they wouldn’t gather enough light. If they operated too slowly, they’d miss rapid changes.

But image sensors have such fine resolution that many pixels are really looking at essentially the same place on the scale of a whole neuron, Wilson says. Recognizing that there was resolution to spare, Zhang applied his expertise in sensor design to invent an image sensor chip that would enable neighboring pixels to each have their own timing. Faster ones could capture rapid changes. Slower-working ones could gather more light. No action or photons would be missed. Zhang also cleverly engineered the required control electronics so they barely cut into the space available for light-sensitive elements on a pixels. This ensured the sensor’s high sensitivity under low light conditions, Zhang says.

In the study the researchers demonstrated two ways in which the chip improved imaging of voltage activity of mouse hippocampus neurons cultured in a dish. They ran their sensor head-to-head against an industry standard scientific CMOS image sensor chip.

In the first set of experiments, the team sought to image the fast dynamics of neural voltage. On the conventional CMOS chip, each pixel had a zippy 1.25 millisecond exposure time. On the pixelwise sensor each pixel in neighboring groups of four stayed on for 5 ms, but their start times were staggered so that each one turned on and off 1.25 seconds later than the next. In the study, the team shows that each pixel, because it was on longer, gathered more light, but because each one was capturing a new view every 1.25 ms, it was equivalent to simply having a fast temporal resolution. The result was a doubling of the signal-to-noise ratio for the pixelwise chip. This achieves high temporal resolution at a fraction of the sampling rate compared to conventional CMOS chips, Zhang says.

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Moreover, the pixelwise chip detected neural spiking activities that the conventional sensor missed. And when the researchers compared the performance of each kind of sensor against the electrical readings made with a traditional patch clamp electrode, they found that the staggered pixelwise measurements better matched that of the patch clamp.

In the second set of experiments, the team sought to demonstrate that the pixelwise chip could capture both the fast dynamics and also the slower, more subtle “subthreshold” voltage variances neurons exhibit. To do so they varied the exposure durations of neighboring pixels in the pixelwise chip, ranging from 15.4 ms down to just 1.9 ms. In this way, fast pixels sampled every quick change (albeit faintly), while slower pixels integrated enough light over time to track even subtle slower fluctuations. By integrating the data from each pixel, the chip was indeed able to capture both fast spiking and slower subthreshold changes, the researchers reported.

The experiments with small clusters of neurons in a dish was only a proof of concept, Wilson says. His lab’s ultimate goal is to conduct brain-wide, real-time measurements of activity in distinct types of neurons in animals even as they are freely moving about and learning how to navigate mazes. The development of GEVIs and of image sensors like the pixelwise chip that can successfully take advantage of what they show is crucial to making that goal feasible.  

“That’s the idea of everything we want to put together: large-scale voltage imaging of genetically tagged neurons in freely behaving animals,” Wilson says.

To achieve this, Zhang adds, “We are already working on the next iteration of chips with lower noise, higher pixel counts, time-resolution of multiple kHz, and small form factors for imaging in freely behaving animals.”

The research is advancing pixel by pixel.

In addition to Zhang, Wilson, and Boyden, the paper’s other authors are Jonathan Newman, Zeguan Wang, Yong Qian, Pedro Feliciano-Ramos, Wei Guo, Takato Honda, Zhe Sage Chen, Changyang Linghu, Ralph-Etienne Cummings, and Eric Fossum.

The Picower Institute, The JPB Foundation, the Alana Foundation, The Louis B. Thalheimer Fund for Translational Research, the National Institutes of Health, HHMI, Lisa Yang, and John Doerr provided support for the research.

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